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Lol, I saw my name at the end w/o reading it completely and it threw me off for a second there. ***hint hint to people who don’t know us, its a different Jackie***:grin: Very good speech Andrew-I really like the use of the first quote. Good luck on Friday to all AHS freshies!!! (including me…:))

Bah,

This nonsensical mumbo jumbo is far too pretentious to bother and attempt to solve the rhetoric that you hath spurred forth from your enigmatic innards. It is superficial to the point of paradoxical filth. What you intended to be a melancholy brigade of irony, perplexes even the newest Poor John. It belikens the worst of waterchenatic knaves. I abhor what foul creature wouldst find this blasphemy even the least bit abitrative.

Bah.

Ohhhh man I reeeeeeally wish I could have been against you. This is the most bias piece of utterly inacurate garbage that I have ever seen, and I would have ever cherrished those glorious few rebuttal minutes to chew you up and spit you out. It’s rather unfortunate that you were put against such an incompetent team.
(Sorry it took so long to respond to this, I know the debate is long over)

we should frame your last comment Ian…it is possibly the most Ian-mindset-representative thing ever said so concisely wouldn’t it have been fun to all have been on this topic…that would have been a good debate. Imagine Ian on Andrew’s side-ha ha…ha ha ha…somehow I don’t think that would work.

I woulda liked that too! If I woulda have been against you, it would have been a very intense and very well done debate. Oh well.

If I was on andrew’s side… I would betray my group. Yeah, I would have to. Because I would basically be arguing against everything I know to be true. I can’t do that…I would rather be right than win.

Well….HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE RIGHT? Think about it, would you believe so firmly in evolution if the educational system had given you the option of thinking about intelligent design? And is believing in intelligent design such a bad thing?

I definitely believe that intelligent design is a possibility, being raised with the idea definitely makes me question the given theory of evolution.
The conclusion that I have come to on my own, is that it was a combination of both. That a certain part was from intelligent design and that other parts were evolution.
That’s my own personal belief and I am definitely not stuck on it, I just feel that there really isn’t enough prof to go either way currently.

Okay, now I’m not saying that it is completely impossible that our species may have been engineered by some other “supernatural” force. It is very possible. But you have to consider, where did this force come from? I mean, the main argument for intelligent design is that humans are so complex that there is no way nature could have produced them on its own, right? Wouldn’t this outside force be far more complex than us if it is able to design and create us? At some point, you’re just going to have to rely on the primordial soup of nature to explain our existence.

Oh and the other reason inteldesign is dumb, is because there is no evidence. We just think there’s some evidence against what we currently believe to be true. Unfortunately, it only appears that the evidence is against us to those with a very weak understanding of probability. The argument that it is so unlikely that humans would have evolved in a universe so completely perfect for supporting life is utter bullshit in every way shape or form. There isn’t a force that selected which universe would be the most perfect for life, LIFE BEGAN BECAUSE THIS UNIVERSE WAS PERFECT!!! Basic probability. Not rocket science.

What sort of evidence are you looking for? I agree with you that the fact that the main reason many people lean toward intelidesign is that there was such a slight chance that it would turn out that we would end up here, and that this reason doesn’t in any way prove intelidesign because if you go on that our case was that 1/bazillion chance that life as we know it would occur. However, if there was a outer power that planned out our universe, how would there be any evidence for it? Is it time for an indirect proof? In my opinion…this is more a philosophical question (Yay!) than anything else. Throw all the science in, but all that shows is that evolution and the formation of the solar system and earth and all that jazz was as unlikely as pigs flying. We can think on Ian terms…basically WE WERE DAMN LUCKY! or we can consider intelidesign…which is something that has to be believed almost blindly.

do you know what scares me? BELIEVING THINGS BLINDLY!!! That was the whole concept of faith. Whenever anyone stopped believing in god, people just said, “Have faith!” and even though they’re basically saying, “believe in this just because we say it’s true,” it seemed to convince everybody. I perfer to hold rigid beliefs to the things that have solid evidence of. I would still be willing to speculate on the fact that perhaps the universe was created by some supernatural being, but I won’t believe it and I wouldn’t want it taught in schools until you could actually show me some evidence. (The probablity thing alone will never convince me)

Question for Ian–what do we actually have evidence for? I can’t find the exact quote right now, but some famous philosopher(glory to the unspecific…cough) made the point that the only thing I can ever know for certain is that I am a thinking being (i think it was Descartes) How do you know that the “evidence” for evolution is true? Should anything not completely certain not be taught in school? If you dismiss intelidesign because there is “no evidence”, you leave grounds to dismiss a lot of other ideas that are currently taught.

To think that there was a creator springs open many and many paradoxes, as how did this “creator” come into being, did he “magically” appear or was he the result of evolution, only on another planet. Pardon me if I am infringing on anybody’s faith but i think that to think some thing that came from nothing created everything is totally unfounded, this Intelligent Design theory is a farce, and these people cant accept that complex molecules formed life, while some invisible “creator” did it out of nothing!!!!!!

Okay, you want to hear my evidence for evolution? We can observe minute changes, or mutations, in the offspring of any creature. No living thing is ever hereditarilly perfect. We’ve observed that these changes often tend to support the more desireable traits though the process of natural selection, where creatures who have mutations of undisirable quality are killed off, and therefore cannot pass their genetic traits forward through their offspring. We have observed microevolution, it is a known fact. (As far as facts go. see next paragraph if you’re enraged) We can actually manipulate microevolution ourselves. (i.e. domestication of animals, agriculture of plants)Doesn’t it seem rather logical that, given longer periods of time and changes of the earth, eventually these little mutations would amount to new species?
This seems like plenty of convincing evidence up angainst the whooping 0 I’ve seen supporting inteldesign. I agree that the only thing I am 100% completely sure of in this universe is the existance of my mind, my body and the rest of the universe I’m not quite so sure about. So really, it could all be some kind of illusion, right? The problem with that is, then everything we know completely falls apart, and we can’t even really have this argument. If you’re saying that the only way inteldesign could exist is if the universe doesn’t actually exist (that’s what you’re saying, right? right.) then I agree with you, but once you assume that’s true, all the rest of science and everything, as I said, completely falls apart, and jello blog bratwurst. Chimpanzee, avacado silo. Underwear kangaroo bocce ball. (There’s no real evidence that the universe doesn’t exist, because if it actually doesn’t, then there’s no such thing as evidence. And if it all just an illusion, then what’s the point anyway?)

So um…where did evolution come from then? What about the laws of physics? How about our minds? How did we acquire the ability to think?

Something that really bugs me is that people like to refer to the “creator” that would have “intelligently designed” us and the rest of the universe as invisible. WHAT IS UP WITH THE FACT THAT IF WE DON’T KNOW WHAT SOMETHING LOOKS LIKE THAN IT’S INVISIBLE? I can definitely see where you are coming from, but it’s not that this creator is invisible, or insubstantial, or intangible, or nothing that we can feel with our senses-its that we are not able to conceive of what this “being” is supposed to be like. Even if you use all the powers of science you are not going to figure out what this thing is. Think of it this way…does a computer know that a human created them? Even the most powerful supercomputers in the world…do they have any conception of the being that put them together? I know that you’re going to think/say/rant-on-to-me-about-how-wrong-I-am that we aren’t anything like computers…computers don’t think…we do think…how can there be a comparison? Well if computers don’t think–like we think anyways–then isn’t it possible that we don’t think like our creator “thinks” and would not have any conceptions of how that works or how that came to be. We’re not even sure of how we came to be…how can we even imagine how a higher power came into being? I know that this doesn’t exactly give you any proof for intelidesign, but it’s something to think about.

Another point…which is probably completely stupid and sounds like just another excuse to say that I’m right-you’re stupid sort of thing…but I want to know what people think about this.

In a way…aren’t the laws of physics themselves an intelligent creator? They don’t necessarily think like we do, and they can’t plan out things and do logical thinking and the such (or maybe they can…who knows) but so far it seems like they’ve done a pretty good job of forming us the way we are. Ok…so you’re going to say…well this is just saying the same thing that Ian’s been saying all along…and it is-just giving it another name. So we were intelligently designed after all…by the laws of physics and other laws of beingness and by evolution…which most people would consider not being intelligently designed so its better for everyone to say that we weren’t so that we don’t get confused.

Now its just the question of why the laws of physics exist and how they came to be. It’s like geometry. Why do two points determine a line? BECAUSE WE SAY SO. Its postulated. (hmm maybe that wasn’t such a great example, but maybe someone out there understands what I’m getting at)

Now tear this comment apart as you may.

Hey Ian, I got something for ya. You’ve hammered away that if its possible it must be, and all that crap. But you’re telling me that there can’t be an alternate universe somewhere where an omnipresent force that governs everything that happens? Put that in your pipe and smoke it, ya jackass.

I think most of what was said in your first comment can be redirected to my latest post. Except the little bit about the intelligent designer being imperceivable to humans. He obviously is perceivable to a point, or else we wouldn’t be able to talk about him would we? The fact that we are able to think up his existence means that we are perceiving him, even if we have nowhere to begin perceiving the state that he lives in.

As for your second comment, I’m pretty sure you’re just agreeing with me here…about how we were created by “natural” means. (laws of physics, evolution, and a lucky roll of the dice.) Have you ever seen two points that don’t determine a line? (Euclidean Geometry, please) Of course it can’t be proven, but the reason we postulate things is because they hold true no matter what, they are a constant. Of course the laws of physics were written by people, but they were written because these equations held true in every situation. Do you think Newton would have written the same laws if the apple had fallen upwards half the time? Everyone always says that Newton “discovered” gravity, when really all he did was just describe it, but he was able to describe it because it did the same thing every time. And maybe none of the laws of physics apply in any universe except our own, and our universe is really just an illusion, but we have seen and demonstrated that they have been true since the beginning of history, and we just gotta have some faith that they’ll stay the same so long as we stay in this universe.

And of course your governing alternate universe is possible, Sean, but as we discussed before, there would be know evidence or any way to detect it in our universe, so there’s really no point in trying to find anything out about it now is there? I mean, if all we know is that it’s possible, then there’s still no way anyone would, or should, stand for it being taught in schools.

I’m pretty sure you’re just agreeing with me here…about how we were created by “natural” means.

EXACTLY

Ian, you are the person I would hire to connect quantum theory and the theory of relativity (Einstein’s quest…i think…maybe those weren’t the exact ones…but oh well…)

No, i’m afraid you’re incorrect, Einstein was the one who thought up the theory of relativity, and if quantum theory was around while he was, it played very little part in any of his research. The relationship you speak of has not been found yet.

I’ll assume that was sarcasm, (it’s kinda hard to tell in type.) If that’s all you have to say, I would probably be better to just not say anything at all.

I think I’ll have to take a quote from Sean on this one:

Look at me, I’m Ian, I’m illiterate, I’m a dumbass.

What do you think I was saying the whole second paragraph!! I guess that you’re just so used to me opposing you that you can’t recognize the fact that I was AGREEING with you and you just had to defend yourself!!!
(Andrew, I really want to call Ian an idiot right now…but I’m not going to because you didn’t want us calling each other stupid-straight out anyways…)

The relationship you speak of has not been found yet.

Well duh…thats why I’m hiring you to find it. IT’S A JOKE!! Einstein thought up the theory of relativity, but his main goal was to find a way to connect it to the quantum theory, because when you put them together stuff goes wrong.

Looka me…i’m jackie…I need to hyperventalate…

I still don’t get what your issue is here…You’re upset because I commented on the fact that you agree with me…I’m not quite seeing what the big deal is.

You were right about Einstein. After publishing his essay about special relativity, he began to look for ways to connect his theory with quantum theory. But back then quantum theory was just about the behavior of electrons, now it’s about probability in general.

We were “lucky”? Assuming time is infinite I think it’d be safe to say that luck had little to do with it. It was merely a matter of time. Infinite years passed before we came to be, and to us that was the beginning.

From there, natural selection isn’t actually a literal act of selection. It is merely the process of the weak not surviving because they cannot. I imagine a tiny geyser of life spitting out cells and bacteria for billions of years until finally one cell managed to survive. From there, more bacteria and many more years until gradually organisms managed to stay alive long enough to produce more of themselves over and over until one of those could do the same and eventually produce what we are now; each cell being better simply because it came from a slightly better cell. This process would have happened over a staggering amount of time.

The idea that something could have created us as we are now is absurd and seems like an excuse to avoid the headache of thinking about how we really came to exist.

Here’s a nice little quip from “The Hitcherhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” that may or may not relate to anything:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful [referring to the Babel fish, which when placed in your ear miraculously translates everything that you hear so that you can understand it] could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.

The argument goes something like this: “I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”

“But,” says Man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.”

“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing.

That’s what I want my little thing before my name to be when you finally get that figured out, Andrew. “Ian quips”. I think that sounds about right.

I’m with you Jalenack.

Don’t worry if most people aren’t, it’s a sign you’re on the right track.

And the comments on this post absolutely prove your point that people aren’t having a balanced opinion because they’re only thaught one.

You look like a religious crack-pot to them, they claim you have no evidence, because they can’t even begin to understand how something could happên outside of their thinking box.

It’s not so flattering to science that they can’t even take in new possibilities that destroy previous theories, such as the complexity of the bacterial flagellum. They just brush it off.

Only a fool will deny the evidence. Evolution has never been and never will be a proven fact, it is at best poor fiction. Creative design is just another folly, drummed up by those who refuse to acknowledge our creator God, and bring our their into harmony with his guidelines for a happy human society. And yet man will take credit for something as trivial (by comparison) for building a simple bookshelf or even something as complex (and yet still trivial by comparison) as a multi storey building. Take a look around at this planet, even without scientific knowledege it is simply inexcusable to fail to give credit to the greatest of all scientists, God!